• Hello!

    As you may have noticed, we are currently in a period of heavy editing. This fact made me remember an idea long overdue: setting up some "official" wiki standards.

    Although most pages (mostly contestants) follow a specific pattern (due to the way I've set up Millionator), some of the new pages don't. This is understandable, as not everyone creates pages using the same tools, and people have different ideas on how to create articles. Furthermore, after seeing some of the new pages that were created, I am now considering changing the way I've been creating articles.

    Thus, this opens the question: Should we create a (new) unified standard to create articles? I think the answer is yes, as it will make the wiki a bit cleaner and tidier than it is right now, and will help new users contribute and create more pages, as they will know what to do and expect from a page.

    However, this also opens the question: What should the standard be? There's a variety of styles that are being used to create pages, but I believe that these revisions ([1] and [2]) should represent the standard for contestant pages (including the intro, FFF, klaxon and walk away/missed question texts), this one ([3]) for hosts and this one ([4]) for WWTBAM versions.

    Nonetheless, regarding the proposed contestant standard, I do want to make some changes (most notably dropping the "UK" and "U.S." bits on categories such as UK contestants from London (series 21)) and determine some necessary matters, including (but not limited to):

    • How lifeline usage should be explained
    • How categories should be presented
    • How question values should be presented in the shuffle format
    • What date format to use
    • Whether the |season paramater in the Infobox contestant template should be used, whether to include "Question" in the FFF question box
    • Whether to keep the "WWTBAM Run" section (as in, removing the ==WWTBAM Run==, and replacing ===Fastest Finger First=== with ==Fastest Finger==)
    • Whether to capitalize season/series
    • How to distinguish between primetime and syndicated US seasons, and much more.

    Now it is the time to voice your opinion. Please state what you feel would be a good standard for pages in this wiki, if you do feel we need one. Anything will be accepted, as long as it doesn't break any of the rules stated in our ruleset (which, by the way, also needs some attention). Keep in mind we are not voting on any standard (yet), as proposals can change over time. Please respect other people's ideas, but feel free to propose anything that you believe would be the best for our community.

    I know that I haven't really stated any desired changes on how hosts and WWTBAM versions should look like. That is only because I can't think of anything right now. If you do have anything, please say it.

    Thank you.

    EDIT: new issues presented down below (Nov. 27, 2016)

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    • 0. Replace revision [1] with actual version as I've forgotten to close FFF question box :P
      1. I'd remove UK/U.S. from £125,000 winners - if a country has pounds/dollars, then £125,000 winners (Ireland). I don't think removing UK from contestants from X is a good idea as it makes a mess in Special:Categories - you have contestants from Belgium, from Canada and suddenly between them from Bristol.
      2. 50:50, ATA, Double Dip are self-explanatory.
      Switch Question as the contestant was walking away (instead of astyle = correct write what correct answer was in caption).
      PAF/Ask The Expert/3 Wise Men/Ask 3 from the audience (Finland)/Ask sb from the audience (don't know the real name, Czech Republic) - tell the names of the people and put a picture of them if possible (or with friends to choose in newer versions), the chosen answer(s), if they were sure and (for 2 last lifelines) if they won sth.
      3. Money won, where are they from, top prize winners/almost millionaires (not empty-handed as Category:£0 winners is connected with that category and not missed 2nd milestone question as nobody cares tbh.)
      4. Put a picture with money tree at the 10th question (or the last if contestant didn't get that far) and then as it was a standard money tree, $25,000 (1 of 14) - Not Timed.
      5. I'm Polish, but I think July 20, 2016 should be fine (or I've just got used to it).
      6. |season - agree, "question" in FFF - I've got used to write it, but I don't think it makes sense.
      7. Depends - a typical contestant (as [1] e.g.) can have WWTBAM Run removed, but e.g. Carpenter should have that header. I'm against removing First as in the UK that's the official name.
      8. I'd say yes, it looks better.
      9. And that's why |season is necessary - write there season 1, season 2, season 3?, season 1 (Syndicated) and so on.

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    • Do keep in mind that Special:Categories is a special page. As such, most readers won't even bother looking at it; and those who would like to browse by category would be better off if they were to use Special:CategoryTree.

      With the "remove the "UK/U.S." prefix in some categories" proposal, I want to avoid possible instances like this one: Category:Australian contestants from Western Australia. I'm pretty sure that the intro paragraphs and contestant infoboxes are enough to let a reader know a contestant's country of origin.

      With the "season/series" capitalization prolem, even if it is a minor concern, it does cause some problems, most notably double categories such as Category:£32,000 winners from Series 4 (UK)‏‎ and Category:£32,000 winners from series 4 (UK). Renaming categories is a tedious process (hint: it cannot be done directly), so this is one thing that should be standardized soon. Otherwise, we will have to deal with more and more categories that would need to be eventually renamed.

      With the date format issue, I do believe that we should respect the country's most popular date format (e.g. US: July 20, 2001; UK: 20 July 2001). The on‏‎ly thing I'm still unsure of is how to deal with contestants whose runs span more than one day (examples including Peter Lee, Ingram Wilcox, Judith Keppel, Rob Mitchell, David Honea, Ed Toutant). These pages all show different ways of representing date ranges, and ideally should be condensed down to one unique format.

      With the U.S. Primetime/Syndicated seasons problem, I believe it is a bit tedious and unnecessary to have the 14 syndicated seasons labelled with (Syndicated), knowing full well that the Primetime version is not coming back any time soon and that the Syndicated version is the version currently airing. I think it should be the other way around (labelling the Primetime versions with (Primetime) and leaving the Syndicated versions the way they are).

      Anyway, if you've got any other ideas, suggestions, or concerns, please do post them down below.

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    • Now I agree with you with UK/US prefixes, in your example it looks just stupid.
      Categories can be renamed by a bot, so code "just" have to be written.
      Date format - well, you're right, as I said before, I'm Polish, so I didn't know that only US people write M/D/Y.
      Multiple days - 1-2 January 1999 if it's two days in a row, 1 & 8 January 1999 in other case.
      Primetime/Syndicated - yeah, I agree with you.
      Also: 'Phone A Friend', 'Phone a Friend' or 'Phone-A-Friend' (I think 3rd option)? 'Ask the Audience' or 'Ask The Audience' (I think 2nd option)?

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    • I'm aware that a bot can potentially solve most of the problems we currently have due to different standards. However, I'd rather have a bot fix 500 articles and categories than have it fix 5,000 of them, simply because the former situation is easier to cope with and the latter situation is avoidable.

      On the other hand, the US calls them: 'Ask the Audience' and 'Phone-a-Friend' (see here), while the UK calls them: 'Ask The Audience' and 'Phone-A-Friend' (see here). So there's that...

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    • For distinguishing between US Primetime and US Syndicated, you could have Season 1P, 2P and so forth for Primetime, and season 1S, 2S, 3S etc.

      In terms of the date, I agree that the country's most popular format should be used, and the same going for spellings. For example, if a UK Question involved the word colour, then it should be spelt coloUr, with the U, but a US one would have it spelt WITHOUT the U.

      Capitalising season numbers doesn't bother me as long as it's consistent across all pages in that category.

      Coming back to Oscareczek's idea about putting a picture of the money tree at certain points, would a money tree template be a feasible thing?

      Lifeline names should follow the same format that country uses. (Officially uses, if applicable.)

      Of course, this is all just my opinion.

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    • The money tree template could work. However, we have to decide a few things before we create such a template, including how to represent jumped/unknown/doubled money values, whether categories should be shown, and most importantly, how should it look like. Don't get me wrong, I like this idea!

      However, I'm not sure I quite like the P's and S's in the page title. They could potentially work as redirects, but I don't think they convey any meaning to a casual reader. I believe there's also enough space in the title bar to put in either Primetime or Syndicated. But then again, adding (Primetime) will probably make it too long to type out...

      Now, some new things:

      A minor issue I encountered yesterday is translating questions. I think this may end up being a bit unnecessary, but just to have it written somewhere, should we stick to a more direct translation of contestant questions, or should question writers adapt the original question so it is more.. uh... English-friendly? For example, in this revision of Enrique Chicote's article, some translations I came up with for "¿De qué fruta se obtiene la copra?" include "Copra can be obtained from which fruit?", "From which fruit can you obtain copra?", "From which fruit can copra be obtained?", "Copra is obtained from which fruit?", "From which fruit is copra obtained?", and so on. I chose the first one, which deviates a bit from what I believe is the most faithful translation (the last example). I haven't checked the quality of the other translations, but at the end, I believe that a question writer should be free to decide how to translate a question, as long as it doesn't break any modern English conventions.

      And finally, which one do you prefer?

      $100 (1 of 15) - Not Timed
      'Ask the Audience' lifeline used
      • A: A - 2% • B: B - 5%
      • C: C - 3% • D: D - 90%

      $100 (1 of 15) - Not Timed
      'Ask the Audience' lifeline used
      • A: A • B: B
      • C: C • D: D
      Ask the Audience: A: 2% • B: 5% • C: 3% • D: 90%

      Suggestions are welcome!

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    • Translations - yours are correct IMO
      ATA - 2nd one because look how it looks today in $100,000 question Jeff Gross

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    • 1. The thing with the translations is that most of the time you can do them in more than one way. I was looking for opinions on whether translations should follow some sort of guideline or be up to the translator.

      2. Good catch! I completely forgot about the AOL thing. Now, if we were to use the second option, how should we deal with AOL ATA? I'm thinking something along these lines:

      Ask the Audience Results
      Studio: A: 2% • B: 5% • C: 3% • D: 90%
      AOL: A: 2% • B: 5% • C: 3% • D: 90%

      But then, should we set up something similar for regular Ask the Audience? Like this

      Ask the Audience Results
      A: 2% • B: 5% • C: 3% • D: 90%

      I'm aware that the text formats are different in these examples (i.e. bolded text).

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    • Can we do sth like:
      |aata =
      |aataaol =
      |bata =
      and so on and if aataaol isn't empty then results take 3 lines, in other way - 1?

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    • Ok, so I went ahead and added the aata/bata/cata/data and aataaol/bataaol/cataaol/dataaol parameters to the WWTBAM Question template. Not final though. Feel free to try them out and please report back anything.

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    • Was the purple(?) color intentional? I don't think it looks well with the rest of the question. Also, caption is on the right of, not under AOL results.

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    • Oscareczek wrote:
      Was the purple(?) color intentional? I don't think it looks well with the rest of the question. Also, caption is on the right of, not under AOL results.

      I believe it's just the WIP.

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    • I put in purple because it is still a WIP. We can change that later.

      By the way, I just "fixed" the caption thing. It's a bit cheaty, but it works! As a bonus, every single question template now has an extra space at the bottom!

      If anyone can figure a way of getting rid of that space using my solution, or, by using an older revision, being able to put the caption thing below the Ask the Audience box, please do so. :)

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    • We put br anyway, so why don't keep that space?

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    • Because we'd need to either get used to the extra space or get rid of all the br's

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    • Get rid of all the br's AND keep the space in template.

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    • Reviving because of some things that need to be addressed.

      I’d first like to talk about thousand separators and how they should be used on this wiki. I mean, whether to put “1,000,000”, “1 000 000”, “1.000.000”, “1000000”, “10,00,000”, “1 Million” or something similar. The problem is that, even though different countries and regions have their own numeral systems and they are completely fine on their own, this is an English wiki. As such, after talking a bit with Antti, I believe it should be expected that all users follow standard English conventions when creating articles, including separating thousands with commas.

      I know that if we agree to separate thousands in a specific way, there will be many articles AND categories that will be caught hanging. And they are a lot, and I doubt someone would like to go and fix them all. That is why I’m currently setting up a bot that will help clean up this problem (announcement coming shortly).

      Another thing is the use of what I would call “Category for categories”, or categories that should only serve as a category hub. For example, we have “Contestants”, “Contestants by country”, “Shows”, “Celebrity contestants”, or even “Contestants from somecountry”. I believe that these categories should have as little pages as possible, and that more specific categories should be used to host pages. For example, “Celebrity contestants” is currently hosting a myriad of Russian celebrity contestants and a few articles about celebrity contestants from other versions, and it is a mess trying to look for a specific article (417 pages). I believe something along the lines of what is currently being done with Category:Celebrity contestants from the U.S. should be done with versions that have lots of celebrity contestants (as in, separate by country, then by season, theme, etc.). Similarly, “Contestants from Russia” is currently hosting 555 pages. No one is going to browse through 555 pages. Maybe create some additional categories to sort contestants by administrative regions (oblasts, republics, etc.) to make it easier for people to look for what they want. And finally, categories that separate contestants by winnings should also separate them by year/season if the category itself gets too big. Just like previously, this task can’t possibly be performed manually. It will need to be performed by a bot.

      Do remember that all that I’ve stated is my opinion and may not be the best answer to the issues at hand. Whatever your opinion is, please make sure to include it as a response to this topic.

      Thank you

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    • Separators – it should be exactly the same as on money tree (except countries with different digits, then I'd suggest 1,000,000 as in American version).
      Categories I'd suggest:
      1. Contestants
      1.1. Contestants from country
      1.1.1. Contestants by money won
      1.1.2. Contestants from city/Celebrity contestants
      1.1.*.1 Contestants from season

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    • My suggest is to not invie any users with their ip adress, they should create their account.

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    • My opinions:

      Add the thousand separators everywhere, despite of the country.

      Write the dates similarly everywhere, despite of the country. I suggest the form "November 28, 2016".

      The 'Contestants from (name of the city)' categories should be written as Category:Contestants from Helsinki, not Category:Finnish contestants from Helsinki.

      Do not add an article to a category X, if the article is already in the subcategory of the category X. For example, if the article is already in the Category:Contestants from Helsinki, do not add the article into the Category:Contestants from Finland.

      Put the names of the TV programs, video games, books, and films in italic.

      Make categories Category:Celebrity contestants by country, Category:Celebrity contestants from Russia, etc.

      Do not add an article into a category, if there is not going to be any other articles in that category. For example, only one Finnish person has won €70,000, so do we really need the Category:€70,000 winners?

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    • Disagree with the last one – if we put all contestants by the money won, then it should be this category.

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    • I agreed with you to add Celebrity contestants from Russia. I will do this alone so i need time to find all russian players and add catergory

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    • Now that I have a bit more time, does anyone oppose the use of a bot to start doing some of the tasks that have been discussed above?

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    • I think we should protect  the wikia from bots. They chabge everything from right to wrong

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    • The name of the category is "Celebrity contestants from Russia", not "Celebrity Contestants from Russia". Do not capitalize the second 'c'.

      'Now that I have a bit more time, does anyone oppose the use of a bot to start doing some of the tasks that have been discussed above?'

      Give it a go. Let's see how it will work.

      By the way, what about the guidelines of the contestants who have been contestants alone AND with someone else?

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    • If we decide to use a bot, it will only perform routine maintenance tasks (such as moving pages from one category to another, fix template parameters if needed, etc.) It is not planned to have any bot create or make major edits in any article.

      Only staff members will be allowed to use and run automated bots, and any one of them may block a disruptive bot.

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    • we need to  know what knows to do 

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    • The bot will run a version pywikibot. You can read more here, and the full list of available scripts here

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    • Aaa ok i got it

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    • The bot is currently moving pages from Celebrity Contestants from Russia to Celebrity contestants from Russia. This is its first real task. Let's see how well it goes down

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    • Okay, 1,5 years ago new ATA was added, I don't think it's WIP anymore - we can change the colour from purple, right? :P

      The new thing is contestant-placed safe haven - how should we show this question is for a guaranteed sum? My suggestion is to colour the value bar if it's guaranteed.

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    • It's 2019, and this thread is mostly dead, but here are some of my thoughts:

      • The lifelines used by the contestant, if possible, should not be on the same table cell as the question at the bottom. I prefer putting lifeline usage and information on a box below the choices, so that the question and the choices look neat.
      • There's probably a way to fit the value, time limit, and category, all of which are on the top cell in two lines, into just one line instead of two.
      • I prefer using gray instead of red for the first Double Dip answer (that turned out to be wrong).
      • Across the wiki, there are a lot of other grammatical problems with English things, e.g. "On May 17, 2019, 3,000th show will air", without the word "the".

      I will try to add and fix as much as I can, but before I start doing these and/or fix (or unfortunately destroy) the question template, I want to know what you think.

      Edit: As I was typing this, I totally haven't thought yet of where the adjustable safety net falls in. Perhaps in the box below the choices?

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    • A FANDOM user
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